Groundless prohibition rules (and a nice evening flight around Stonehenge)

I read it as 400ft above not 400ft above or below.

I asked this similar question on my pfco course so I was lead by what they told me.

They said if you want to film in a valley from the bottom and top you had to have 2 takeoff places one at the bottom to film down there, and one at the top to film there, but you couldn’t fly down into the valley thus looking down on your drone

So I was going by that info. I know this can be interpreted in different ways and I went with what I was told.

Apologies if it’s wrong but the diagram isnt very clear but it only shows arrows going straight up and down relative to ground level and not diagonally down under 400ft if you understand what I mean

The diagram is just an illustration of how to interpret the legislation but obviouy doesn’t cover all scenarios.

What’s more important is the wording.

I dont understand where you say ‘where you stand is irrelevant’ how do you do crowd control?

Crowd control is the job of your assistants; your job is to fly the drone. :):grinning:
The legislation is pretty blunt on this; you cannot go above 400’ above ground level and it’s relative to the drone’s altitude; the take-off point is irrelevant. If you’re on a hill, it means as you fly down into a valley you have to descend to ensure your aircraft remains less than 400 feet above the ground, as shown in the diagram. No where can I find anything on preventing you from flying below your take-off point. I do that very regularly. Cheers, Ian

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@AG-Cranes
ANO = Air Navigation Order - the CAA publication that contains the rules covering drones / UAVs and how / where you can fly.
Ian

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If this is the real interpretation then on a hill you wouldn’t be able to fly up and down the hill you would only be able to fly along the contour line you were stood on. The diagram shows the pilot halfway up the slope and indicates that they are still able to fly the drone 400ft (got the correct unit this time) above the valley floor or 400ft above the top of the hill.

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@AboveAndBeyondMedia Stuart I am worried that the peeps who have trained you haven’t done a very good job of explaining the code which is always open to interpretation as this thread shows stick to the rules and you can’t go wrong.

You can only go on what you’re told and their interpretation of the rule.

They said use your self as tbe base line and fly 400ft up from their if you need to go lower down the valley you need to go down tbe valley so you always fly above you and never below

At tbe time I couldn’t argue the point not knowing any difference

@AboveAndBeyondMedia That’s the problem Stuart with most of the CAA regs. They’re so contradictory and each rule has exceptions housed in a separate section that no one ever knows what the full facts are.
I had discussions with my trainers about their interpretations of using sub-250g drones at less than 50m from buildings or people… So many exemptions and different regs. It’s a mess. (hence my video on doing the PFCO.,)
either way, don’t lose too much sleep over this sort of stuff. I believe as long as you can show you’ve flown responsibly and within your understanding of the rules, you’re unlikely to come into trouble…
Cheers
Ian

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Thanks not quite accurate Ian.

The regulations don’t say you are not allowed to have a payload or drop anything. The regulations say ‘you are not allowed to endanger anyone or anything with your drone, including by things that you drop from it”

You are allowed to have payloads, i.e cameras / night navigation
lights etc, but they must be firmly fixed to the SUA and not exceed the Maximum Take Off Weight / Mass (MTOM) of your airframe. You could be prosecuted if they fell off and hurt a person or damage property.

For those wanting to drop things from a parachute, dropping something from your drone in a place near the public that could endanger someone is not allowed (and you could be prosecuted) whereas dropping an item over a field, where you know no one is around, is not likely to endanger persons or property and so would not itself breach the Air Navigation Orders.

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Yep! You’re spot on… It was payloads for dropping or releasing I remember reading about.
So… We can attach that 400 ft bit of string :smile:

Ian

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Have to say I have not understood the fascination of wanting to drop anything from my drone! :joy:

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Hi Ian,

Appreciate your reply, it’s such a mine field. I will fly as I interpret the rules etc it may be wrong in the eyes of others but when it comes to defending my decision to whom ever challenges it or justifying my flying options to a customer.

There’s so many things we could point out about others flying decisions but we should be sticking together and educating rather than chastising.

I’ve seen people taking off from laybys , where’s the 50m rule there then? Hey but that’s another story …

Hope you all have a great weekend

Stay safe

So, over a year later, the Times picks up this video and contacted me for comment. I gave quite a bit of comment on the lack of legality of English Heritage’s & the National Trust’s stance. I have to say, I wasn’t happy with how the story went in the Times yesterday but on the whole I got the point well made about how EH and the NT are not actually entitled to do what they do. And in the comments section, I was able to make my point far clearer. Suprising how many positive comments there were (i’d say around 70% were positive to drones, even from people who do’nt own one…)

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As the Times is firewalled, here is the text of the story:

Drones and heritage chiefs in battle for Britain’s skies
They are the most spectacular monuments, landscapes, castles and stately homes that Britain has to offer. And for a growing band of amateur drone pilots, their majesty is only increased when viewed from the air.

The enthusiasm of a new generation of drone operators for bird’s-eye photos is not shared by the owners of sites they wish to photograph. Yet there appears to be little that those entrusted to look after landmarks can do to stop the buzzing overhead.

English Heritage, which is responsible for Stonehenge, has banned the use of unmanned aerial vehicles over all its sites without approval, saying that they pose a risk to sensitive historic sites as well as to people visiting them. It has recorded about 250 unauthorised drone flights over the past three years.

Drone operators are pushing back, pointing out that landowners do not own the airspace and that if pilots wait until sites close and visitors leave, they are not breaking any rules provided they take off from a public footpath and stay 50 metres away from structures.

Ian Wells, 49, a City business analyst from Chelmsford, Essex, is a hobbyist who has used a drone to film Avebury stone circle, Silbury Hill and the Hackpen white horse in Wiltshire.

He said: “They can’t prohibit drones flying over any more than they could a small plane, paraglider or hot air balloon. We don’t ban cars because of a few idiots who break the speed limits and equally the tiny minority who fly drones inappropriately should not ruin the fun for the majority.”

Other sites that attract drone pilots include Portchester Castle in Hampshire, Conisbrough Castle in South Yorkshire and Housesteads Roman Fort on Hadrian’s Wall. The National Trust has a similar blanket ban on drone flights at its properties without approval. Trust coastlines that attract drone pilots include Giant’s Causeway in Co Antrim, Birling Gap in East Sussex and Blakeney in Norfolk.

In comments posted under Mr Wells’s footage online, fellow drone users discussed plans to film sites and asked for tips. Some discussed fine details of public paths and take-off spots.

Many hobbyists want to share their photographs and videos on Instagram, and other social media sites. Some, drones however, are operated by professional photographers who sell their images for £500 each or more. Mr Wells said: “English Heritage allow you to pay them an extortionate fee to shoot video after-hours. It’s a shame that they don’t offer members out-of-hours slots at more reasonable rates, like they allow members to walk among the stones at Stonehenge after hours.”

English Heritage and the National Trust cite Civil Aviation Authority rules that say drones are not permitted to be flown within 50 metres of any structure or person, or within 30 metres of any person other than the pilot during take-off or landing. They also say that data protection laws mean aerial photographs could breach people’s privacy.

A handful of National Trust houses are particularly sensitive: Osterley and Cliveden are under Heathrow’s airspace and Dunham Massey is near Manchester airport. Many properties also have owners, staff or tenants in residence.

Jon Livesey, English Heritage security adviser, said: “When authorised and used by fully trained pilots, under the strict guidelines of the CAA, drone footage can be a valuable tool within the heritage sector, allowing for spectacular and informative views of historic sites. We want to get the message out that unauthorised use carries considerable risks to visitors, to staff and to the very buildings that the hobbyist pilots are seeking to celebrate.”

A National Trust spokesman said: “Few non-commercial users have the correct training or permission from the Civil Aviation Authority to operate drones and should a drone cause damage or harm, pilots generally do not have the correct insurances to compensate those affected. Drones should not be flown over people and as much of our land is open access we cannot guarantee an area is ever completely empty . . . The special nature of our properties makes the risk of damage more severe.”

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And as the reporter didn’t quite put things the way I expected, I made this fairly lengthy comment that racked up the highest number of ‘likes’ of all the comments. So hopefully a positive outcome. I am now waiting for the legal proceedings from EH / NT to commence :grinning:

I am the person quoted in much of this article.
When a neighbour tells you that you can’t park outside their house on a public road, it leaves you in a difficult position. Do you get into an argument or just do what’s legally allowed?
My YouTube channel, ‘Ian in London’, only promotes good , safe, legal and considerate flying. The CAA have addressed legal and privacy concerns for drones and, when flown under their rules, there really is no issue. They own and administer airspace, not the land owner, and their rules are very clear that subject to genuine CAA no fly zones like airports, you may fly above 50m over any land that is not considered a congested or residential area.
A drone flown higher than 50m is barely audible and presents no more privacy issues than any mobile phone, let alone a DSLR camera.
That said, EH and the NT could engage with this growing area of photography
and easily offer out of hours drone evenings that most drone operators would
happily pay a reasonable entrance fee for. But instead, they currently impose a fee approaching £1,000 and insist you must hold a CAA Permission for Commercial Operations, which is only required by the CAA if you are filming for commercial purposes and costs around £1,300 to obtain.

EH & the NT are not adhering to CAA guidelines and are going far beyond the CAA’s requirements. As such, their view of unauthorised flights does not match the CAA’s view and as mentioned, it’s the CAA who make the rules, not the land owner. Drones offer amazing perspectives and give beautiful images and video; that is why most people fly them, myself included. Anyone wondering what the fuss is about can see some examples on my YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/IaninLondon and click on the ‘Fun Flying Around’ section. Just like digital cameras, drones are only getting more prevalent. Engaging and working with hobbyists is key, not making up arbitrary and non-legal rules that will ultimately be ignored, just like a difficult neighbour. Ian.

https://www.youtube.com/IaninLondon

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Well said Ian.

Clearly the newspaper had its agenda and considering that were clearly out to have another pop at drone flyers, I believe your side came out pretty well, as shown by the support you got in the comments. Well done for making the case so well.

Actually, I think you have helped put more pressure on EH and NT as they are having to start to recognise that they don’t have the power to control the skies above the site.

It was interesting that the Times didn’t have a quote from the CAA. Probably because it would have supported your comments!

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These organisations maybe supported in part with the new EU drones laws that could come in, as these define flying over people in more detail in the open category than the current drone regulations.

The Open category is then further divided down into three operational ‘subcategories’, in order to allow different types of operation without the need for an authorisation, as follows:

 A1 (fly ‘over’ people) – Operations in subcategory A1 can only be conducted with unmanned aircraft that present a very low risk of harm or injury to other people due to their low weight (less than 250g), their type of construction, or because they are a ‘toy1’ (i.e. they are ‘inherently harmless’). However, flight over open-air assemblies of people is not permitted.

 A2 (Fly ‘close to’ people) – Operations in subcategory A2 can only be conducted with an unmanned aircraft that is compliant with a specific product standard (and a maximum mass of less than 4kg), but this unmanned aircraft can be flown to a minimum safe horizontal distance of 30 metres from uninvolved people, or down to 5 metres horizontally when its ‘low speed mode’ is selected. In addition, the remote pilot must have successfully completed an additional competency examination in order to operate in this subcategory.

We don’t yet know what the additional competency examination is, maybe the new version of the PfCO?

More on the new proposed implementation of the new EU Drone laws (CAP1789) in this thread Will CAP1789 kill off the requirement for a PfCO?

Thnaks Brian. I genunely hope EH & the NT now change their approach. It put them in a far more difficult position as they simply couldn’t defend thmselves…

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Money talks.
I wonder how many Times readers are members of the NT? I wonder how many adverts the NT etc place with the Times.
The Times wouldn’t dare print an article that is openly seen to be promoting or condoning the rights of drone pilots for fear of upsetting the NT or HE in case they decide to use another paper for advertising.

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