I am trying to get my head around when I need permission from a landowner to TOAL. I am totally confused (it doesn’t take much!).
To those that have clashed with me in the past this is a genuine question… I am not trying to make trouble. If you don’t want to help me understand then please don’t post as I don’t think I can take any more grief… thanks
I see all over that we don’t need permission in a public place but first question then… what is public? Just because the public have access it doesn’t mean that the landowner would give permission. For example… car parks… some are privately owned, some are council owned… but all of them are owned by someone. So when I read that we need the landowners permission to TOAL what does that actually mean in practice and just because a bit of land has public access and is owned by the council why don’t we need the council’s permission?
Is there some blanket permission that is given which can be overridden by a bylaw if the council wants?
How does this work please because right now I never know where I can TOAL from!
Strictly speaking the current regs in CAP722 suggest it’s more of a “don’t be trespassing”.
If you’re lawfully on the land, and have no reason to believe the landowner has an enforceable objection to your activity (eg. it’s not a public right of way, and there’s no signage up against it), then you’re probably fine.
In the first instance the worst you’re doing is civil trespass and the landowner remedy is to ask you to stop and leave. It’s really not as big of an end of the world scenario as people get worked up about.
What do you fly? That determines the rules you have to comply with (eg Open category, Article 16, A1, etc). If your fly sub249g like a Mini 2 then ignore the car parks and anything that might be owned by a council who might have a bye law, and just take off from a pavement, or grass verge, or footpath, etc. As long as you follow the Drone Code for your type of drone.
Council car parks are probably usually fine, even in council areas that have byelaws, funnily enough.
The byelaws that exist around drones (usually “model aircraft” in the byelaw) are almost always part of parks and pleasure grounds byelaws - because historically it wasn’t feasible to take off or land a model aircraft of any kind on council land other than a park/recreation ground. Parks and pleasure grounds byelaws have an annexe or appendix at the end which list all the locations they apply to. Car parks won’t be on there. The exception might be a car park attached to a park might be covered by one.
Local highways (which includes the pavement) are usually also owned by a council but - again - parks byelaws won’t apply to them.
Just another example of how existing byelaws are totally unfit for purpose. You can stand on the pavement outside a park with a byelaw against flying drones and hand-takeoff a <250g drone and overfly the park totally lawfully in almost all cases where the council has these kinds of byelaws.
I think if you try to look for/gain permission for every flight you would rarely take off. Within reason I will fly from anywhere I want and would deal with it if/when challenged. There are the obvious ones to avoid such as National Trust and the like. In the 5 years I have been flying I have never been challenged or had a flight objected to by anyone.
I would potentially ask if it was private property out of politeness.
If nobody is around to ask and the area is open to all then I will crack on. That would apply to any land including NT unless I saw a no drones sign - I am not about to check Land Registry on every piece of land that I walk upon. NT gardens are a bit more obvious than open land and I will avoid them as they are not open to all.
If there is a sign saying no drones, then I will go to the next available land option.
Roads are highly unlikely to be controlled by the council, unless you are in a unitary authority. They are likely to be controlled by the county council or a private company (many are including roads that my companies own). See checkmystreet.co.uk to see who is responsible.
As a new pilot (me), I tend to operate under the ‘easier to ask forgiveness than permission’. The worst that’ll happen is that you’ll be asked to leave. Otherwise, if the flight is safe and within the CAA rules, and the environment is suitable, then I would just do it. Obviously this applies only to land when you’d not expect to be shouted at if you were there without a drone.
Well yes and no-one wants confrontation. But the question is “who is asking?” and what authority do they have to ask? Better to know the rules and the law and stand your ground then to be forced away by someone who thinks they know better and assumes power over you where none exists. We should never feel embarrassed for carrying out a lawful activity.
Basically public land is any land owned outright or administered by a Council (parish, district, borough or county) and consequently you are free to use that land for any recreational purpose (including flying of UAV’s) so long as you stay within and abide by any pertinent legal requirements (CAA regs and ANO)
My philosophy on drone flying is if it’s public land and I can fly without breaking a law then I shall, if I choose to, and I won’t be asking permission from anyone to do so. If challenged with attitude they get completely and utterly ignored (happend opnce in nearly two years) You’ll find that with no reaction they have no reason to continue and just slope off butt hurt.
After I got my drone I spent an inordinate amount of time trying my best to learn all the regs regarding places, restrictions, FOI req for East Anglia etc etc … all so that in the event of any altercation when the ignoring didn’t work I could quite rightly stand my ground if it came to it.
It is an area that new comers who “want to do the right thing” always get confused about. I nearly ALWAYS feel nervous or silly taking off from ANYWHERE… (Talking about LOS < 250g planes and drone here).
Took some lovely shots of fields, etc the other day after I flew my small planes LOS around a council football field. No one complained, and one couple as I walked off the park asked to have a look at the planes and drone… All I’ve ever had is interest or “nothing”.
It takes time and confidence, but I still find it “scary” to some extent. I’m worried about being told off even if I know I’m totally in the law, the regs, insured, etc. If dogs are on that field, or kids I don’t take off (tell you what with this heat, go to a field in the middle of the day and find shade, no dogs anywhere!) Just hate confrontation of any sorts…
Also ONCE flown FPV on my own… Hated that, just kept thinking someone (farmer) would come and shout at me whilst in air. Hated the whole experience (yes it’s illegal, but I know a lot of people who do it), and when I fly FPV I’m nearly ALWAYS close to ground doing tricks, etc. so the risk of hitting anything in the air I decided was nill… Will probably never fly FPV on my own again. It’s a choice we make… I was miles from anyone in fields, and never saw a single sausage in the hour I was walking, flying and traipsing around…
The good people here on GADC have given me confidence over the year or so I’ve been here. More stick time… We worry that we’re doing something wrong, I’m slowly learning and teaching my brain we’re not… It’s recreation, it’s a hobby (some people (esp my partner) find weird). She asked me “How much was that plane” the other day… Was a cheap (in my mind) volantex. Said about £50, and she’s like YOU WHAT HOW Much?! Madness. I’ve never said what the DJI FPV Drone combo cost, or the ONE extra battery I’ve bought… heh…
Exactly this 100%. I too used to worry about what people thought as I flew on the coast or in my local park but now I don’t give it another thought. Keep your wits about you at all times with regard to dogs etc and just use good old common sense but always be prepared for the odd Karen or Ken to wander up giving it the biggun (cock a deafan and totally ignore)
You lot have given me a lot of confidence to fly… thank you.
I do know the regs pretty well and yes, I somehow feel almost embarrassed when I take off from somewhere as if I shouldn’t be doing it when I know it is OK, I know I am safe and I know I am within the Drone Code. It’s strange… what’s that all about. I think it is years of being told NO by officials regarding R/C planes and helis that is it ingrained into my brain that the answer is still no but times have changed.
Thanks again for taking the time to explain… I really do appreciate it
I think it’s we’re aware that “Karens” on social media hate us, they think we’re photographing them in the shower or something. We’re spying on houses to rob, etc, etc… It’s seeped into our subconscious so we’re thinking we’re doing wrong. There are idiot drone users out there (as there are idiot drivers, cyclists, dog owners, runners, walkers, everyone), but if we try and stick to the rules (I don’t check local byelaws, or policies, just the NFZs, etc) slowly slowly people might understand a little more. We just WANNA FLY!
I think attitudes have already largely started to change. Slowly, almost imperceptibly, but they have. Things like DMARES have changed attitudes; people are aware of it and while those of us who have done it know it’s barely worth the paper it’s written on in terms of testing actual competence but it gives a certain impression to the public that you need a “licence” to do it.
The simple osmosis that you can’t watch TV for more than 20 minutes without seeing what’s obviously a drone shot is changing attitudes, people trust things which they’re familiar with more.
Things like Ukraine have, funnily enough, changed peoples’ attitudes too. I got speaking to an older, somewhat conservative woman in the park while making my way through to the next one it connects to (where I was going to actually fly), when I found a dead hedgehog and she also came over to see what it was. She said she didn’t used to like them but changed her mind somewhat after seeing how they’ve been used in intelligence in Ukraine, and largely all the same ones we’re flying, because if we were ever in a total war situation like that again she’d want people around who can just use them in a similar way to how they’re using them and have the experience.
A great question and some brilliant replies. I am in the same boat as you. I always feel like I am going to be spotted and moved on, so I keep my flights short and specific to get a certain set of shots rather than flying for as long as I like just for the fun of it. The replies to your questions have given me the confidence to just keep flying! Thanks.
