So I’m staying near here and jets about 250 ft up are coming up the valley every few minutes. Drone Scene, Drone Assist show nothing and the MoD RAF site says there are no flights … Is this normal?
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The “Mach Loop” is used by RAF (& other airforces) for low level training virtually daily.
Not sure why it doesn’t show on the apps, but the last time that I looked, the low level corridoor through the Ogwen valley isn’t appearing either.
Not at all sure why the LFA website is showing “no activity” though.
Yes, it’s the Mach loop, but I do wonder what the status of flying a Mini 3 Pro is under these circs.
The wonderful Mach Loop, well known for F15s, Typhoons, Ospreys, A400Ms, Hercules’, the Hawks from Valley, F35s, etc, etc.
If you don’t want to lose your drone up the intake of a jet, or get it chopped up by a helicopter blade (don’t forget they can fly down to ground level), go on Saturday or Sunday, they don’t fly on weekends.
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Status = use common sense.
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Completely normal.
Mach loop is one of the most widely used low flying training loops in the country, even more so since the RAF fast jets got unbanned last month.
It won’t be on a NOTAM (but is clearly marked on VFR and other charts). There is no website giving activity times in the loop (the MoD website is LFA7 in general which isnt the same).
Stated again as people misunderstand it - there is no website detailing mach loop activity times.
You can expect large numbers of USAF and now, RAF fast jets following a specific one way route down to about 150ft AGL (or 100ft in LFA7T) at any point during daylight hours and weekdays.
Id seriously consider NOT flying a drone in those times in that area for common sense reasons.
https://machloop.co.uk/ for some info.
If you want some heads-up, look on ADSB Exchange or 360Radar (NOT Fr24 due to its block list) for an aircraft squawking low level (7001). If you’ve got a VHF you might hear them call on 130.490 before entering l/l.
Ultimately, if you want to fly there, weekend is the safest bet. That or bank holidays.
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Taken from MarkdeBruin.net…
"scanner Frequencies
128.7000 London Military Central. This is the most important freq to have in your scanner. This is where aircraft call up for the transit corridors to Wales, state their intentions, and the areas they want to operate in. You will want to monitor this frequency as much as possible. This freq is a "catch all" freq for all three important radar corridors used by aircraft transiting east to west.
133.9000 London Military West. This is where you will hear most aircraft call up ATC and ask to return to base (RTB). Why is this important? Well, if you know you have frontliner aircraft operating in your area, and you are waiting for them to pop around the corner it is very useful to know whether the aircraft are still around, or whether they are on their way home. You will also hear Hawks call up and ask to transit south to the Pembrey and Aberporth ranges. This freq is used by aircraft calling up for the Lichfield and Daventry corridors transiting west to east.
135.1500 London Military South West. This freq is used by aircraft operating in South Wales and South England. You will hear aircraft that operate near Yeovilton, Boscombe, Hereford, New Quay, The Bristol Channel, Lands End etc. Once in a blue moon you will get an aircraft that is operating down there and then flies North to see you - but this is very rare. This frequency is used by aircraft calling up for the Swindon/Westcott corridor transiting west to east.
278.0000 Nato Low Level. This is used almost exclusively by F-15's as they call up and announce their intention to drop into low le
127.4500 London Military North West. This is used by aircraft heading for the Lakes, but also aircraft transiting to Wales from the north - usually Leeming Hawks. The importance of that is the following: Leeming Hawks from 100 SQN are frequently operating in various roles with frontline aircraft, so if you catch one on the scanner, you could guess that something else and more meaty is about. This, however, can be a crapshoot and no significant meaning should be attached. Remember, it's all a guessing game".
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All very exciting, but we don’t all follow what the RAF get up to. Hard to avoid here, but I’m still surprised that Drone Scene and Drone Assist have nothing about this activity. Half of Cardigan Bay is marked with a red zone, and the railway line below it all is marked in yellow. I haven’t tried to fly in the loop valley but I do wonder if DJI Fly knows about it.
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Your first point of call:
The timetable doesn’t always give you an allotted time, but as they say, they can change as weather conditions change. This is only for RAF aircraft, USAF and other countries use the area as well, and you’ll need to check with a scanner for activity.
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Yes, I looked at that at the start (see post 1). “No activity” it says for “Central Wales”. It doesn’t help if unannounced foreign jets dart about the place! Aren’t they under UK airspace control?
My point remains, why isn’t there any general warning about a restricted flight area on two of the commonly used apps? Perhaps it isn’t an FRZ?
It’s exactly the same as us Howard, if it’s good weather, stick the stuff in your bag, jump in the car go flying, if it’s pissing down, snowing, foggy, high winds, sod it stay in the house and watch the telly!
20170215-Low_Flying_Leaflet_-_Master_v3_Final.pdf (482.3 KB)
I think the answer to the FRZ question is answered by “Most low flying is planned on the day of the flight
to account for weather, training requirements and
airspace restrictions. A forecast of daily activity is available
for most areas from 0800 515 544. When pre- planned
exercises and other events are scheduled, they are
notified on our website and in local media”
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The DJI Flysafe system is a law unto itself and doesn’t always make sense. Unlikely but if the Chinese don’t know about the low flying area 7 then it’s probably a good thing:-D
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Just to complete the picture, this is where I was staying, in a side valley off the Mac Loop. The jets went up the valley to the right, just in front of the hills you can see.
To be fair that’s pretty old and dated.
You might, if lucky and in range hear them announce plans for LL on ATC (but even if they do, likely to miss it in the deluge of other unrelated a/c).
Also the NATO L\L uhf was replaced by a standardised VHF L/L common by the CAA some while ago now. Trialled in June 21 then made permanent.
They now call on 130.490.
Worth noting if you’re not on top of a valley listening you won’t hear them call at all on any frequency anyway so dont rely on it.
Squawk 7001 on ADSBExchange if you have a signal and check ahead.
In reality, if you’re in Ogwen or similar you’ll have no phone signal to check flights and no radio reception to check aircraft. And if its a weekday is safe to assume there will be traffic multiple times a day.
Why would they have something? Its not a restricted zone, danger area or anything else.
Cardigan bay is a designed danger area (ie restricted airspace) which is completely different.
You cant colour in 80% of the UK in yellow just because some aircraft might use it low level at some point.
Or are you arguing for 80% of the UK to be banned from drone flights just in case?
You could say the same about the Usk and Wye valleys that typically get heavier low flying aircraft and helicopters to and from the ranges.
Ultimately there are lots of areas in the UK (The Lake District being another, as is Glen Coe etc) where military aircraft will practice low level flying. These aren’t on a schedule, aren’t on a timetable and typically chosen on the day (or even on the way) as weather and other conditions dictate.
@gnirtS In April I was in northern Scotland where a huge swathe of airspace is marked as a restricted airspace and
Intermittent Airspace
Intermittent airspace are volumes that are temporarily activated, typically via a NOTAM or pre-defined schedule.
I was surprised that the Mac loop was not designated in a similar way given that more aircraft were flying at 400 ft or lower in two days than I saw in Scotland over two weeks.
Lots of Scotland is a danger area, an entirely different piece of airspace restriction.
But that doesn’t include Glen Coe/Lomond or for that matter the lake district, Wye valley etc where most low flying happens. Not are NOTAM’d (nor could they be for routine traffic).
The airspace in those areas, just as the Mach Loop, are not restricted in any way.
Why would you want them to be?
UAS flying involves common sense, checking the area (they’re clearly marked on VFR charts for example) and flying in such a way that the drone is in line of sight and able to react immediately to any potential conflict.
Unless you want half the UK marked up and restricted (ie banning) UAS flights other than weekends it just comes down to personal common sense when flying.
NATS AAIA are clearly listed in the AIP and online: https://www.aurora.nats.co.uk/htmlAIP/Publications/2021-03-25-AIRAC/graphics/227213.pdf
@gnirtS I’m just asking the questions, not seeking a clampdown on flying areas.
With all the emphasis on safe flying, following the drone code, etc , I’m just surprised that areas with intermittent flying of jets at drone attitudes aren’t flagged to warn other airspace users that there could be traffic nearby.
All of Wales is a LTA, all the lake district is an LTA, half of Scotland is.
Colouring in massive amounts of the country in as “Warning” isn’t going to do anything - its an area so big and every single day people will simply ignore it.
The safe flying/common sense comes in by checking before going (ie preparation and planning) and then operating in a way that allows rapid actions if required.
Attached is the problem, on a large scale, anywhere could have low flying with no warning and notice (Outside CTAs etc).
“Don’t fly the drone in Wales in case there are low flying jets” isn’t that useful.
So what do they do? You can’t warn for the entire country, the airspace is not restricted use in any way at all, traffic isnt scheduled ahead of time or often notified. High intensity areas are charted and the charts are fully public.
Aircraft using it set a correct squawk and call on VHF as per Enr5.2 procedures.
Really cant see what they’re expected to do here.
Put out an app so we can see what they are doing before we fly our plastic toys