My son’s local rugby club is having a ‘fun day’ in the summer and they’d like some photos of the event for their website. It’s a community grass-roots club, no money is changing hands. If I was to volunteer to take a few photos of the event from the extremities, would I need commercial insurance? (they’re not paying me, nobody is making money from the photos, I’m just helping out our local club). I’m a member of FPV-UK, so have their cover for recreational flights. It’d “feel” non commerical to me, but not sure if there’s a better definition than that.
If you’re getting nothing of value then it’s (IMHO) not commercial. You’re just some bloke who has a drone, has asked the club for permission to TOAL and you’ve kindly offered to give them copies of some of the photos they might find interesting…
In your shoes I’d probably just be conscious of how I’m behaving while there, just to avoid any potential confusion. If anybody speaks to/challenges you on the day then remember that you’ve got the club’s permission, but you aren’t flying on their behalf.
.----.if you are being paid for it.
In the full size aviation world its known as flying for hire & reward and a commercial pilots locence is required…IF a Private pilot on a simple private pilot’s licence is caught doing it…its the naughty step😊…
I looked at this myself in similar circumstances recently. I did find, but can’t currently lay my hands on it, the suggestion that such a thing might be commercial as the recipient’s website might get some benefit from it. I disagree with that. It seems to me the issue is, is the remote pilot receiving some valuable consideration? I think it was Coverdrone but I will find it. I have Coverdrone and FPV. Taking it further, even if I happened to take a picture by chance of a business premises and then gave it to the owner who was a friend and then without my knowledge put it on his website for advertising and then got loads of business, how have I flown for valuable consideration?
Either way, the CAA says this……
“Insurance for drones and model aircraft below 20kg
If you fly a drone or model aircraft that weighs less than 20kg for fun, recreation, sport, or as a hobby, you can choose whether or not to have insurance.
If you fly for any other reason, you must have third party liability insurance. For example, you must have insurance if you:
get paid to take pictures or record video or carry out surveys
use your drone for work, such as on a farm, park or estate
Although insurance is optional if you only fly for fun, recreation, sport, or as a hobby, remember you’re responsible for your actions. You could be held personally liable for any injury or damage you cause, so you may want to consider getting third party liability insurance.”
All that said, it seems to me advisable to still have recreational insurance which you seem to have via FPV.
Thanks, that seems to make it clear. I’m not getting paid so the CAA doesn’t seem to require me to get specific insurance.
I’m guess it’s in Coverdrone’s interest to make the need for their services sound as broad as possible. I did look and it only actually costs £4.50 for a days’ commercial insurance anyway, but I’d rather not get that if I didn’t need to.
As you say, I am covered for public liability by the FPV policy (again, for non-commercial use), and completely agree that I would only ever consider flying anywhere with some kind of insurance in place.
Sounds like you intend to follow the code, flying around the extremities. In that case, forget they asked you, take the photos anyway and when it’s over, happen to mention to them you have photos if they’d like copies of them FOC.
Found it, It was Coverdrone. The link they provide doesn’t actually mention insurance but I guess it’s somewhere in CAP393. I will plough through and see if I can find it….
“Am I a commercial or recreational operator?
The CAA have provided some clarification of a commercial flight and you must obtain a commercial policy unless your flight is for “sport or recreational purposes only”. A recreational flight would NOT include paid work whether that is direct or indirect (such as imagery being used on another organisations website or social media). If you are happy that you are not operating commercially then you can select for recreational cover only. The full wording supplied by the CAA can be found here on page 42 of CAP393.”
I read that as paid=commercial … the ‘imagery being used on another organisations social media’ seems connected to the ‘paid work’ part of that sentance.
There’s no -requirement- to do that that I’m aware of (sensible as it may be) with a sub-250g drone, which is what I’d be flying. I intend to skirt around the edges of the event anyway and not intentionally overfly anyone (again, even though in theory I could). No intention of buzzing the players
Coverdrone categorically told me it was commercial work. I do shed loads for free for registered charities. It’s about £10/day for Coverdrone commercial insurance, just buy it. I have an annual recreational policy with them, I have FPVUK and BMFA membership too, but when you pass stuff over, even for free a grey mist depends as its not then for you own consumption. Crackers, but its a tenner so nae bother
The CAA tell you that you don’t need “commercial” aviation insurance if your flight is “recreational” or “sport”. Where do they tell you? In their advice, such as CAP722. But it doesn’t seem to be based on anything legal, it just seems to be something they’ve invented.
So: if you follow the CAA advice, your question should simply be: is this something I’d do for recreation (or sport)? Yes, if you’re paid in advance, it’s probably not recreation, but plenty of people make money from their hobby.
The actual law around this is a hang-over piece of EU legislation, regulation 785/2004, which you can find here. That exempts operators of “model aircraft with an MTOM of less than 20kg” from its requirements. Nothing about whether your flight is for sport, or recreation, nothing about drones. Is your drone a model aircraft under that clause? Nobody knows.
The CAA view seems to be that if you fly a drone for recreation or sport it magically becomes a “model aircraft”. If it’s for neither of those purposes, then it magically turns back into being a proper “aircraft”.
The insurance providers deliberately sow confusion around all this, partly because they want more of your money, and partly because all insurance providers are bastards who will find any opportunity they can not to pay out when things go wrong.
That’s the real kicker. The insurer can write any terms they want into their insurance. So once you’ve decided you want insurance, you’re completely at their mercy as to which kind to get. If they say your activity is commercial, then they just won’t pay out under a recreational policy.
I thought the decision is based on the intent at time of flight. Expecting to get some reward for it (even a free pint) or you’ve been asked to fly and will be handing the photos over to someone.for use on a website, etc makes it commercial.
If you fly because you want to with no intent to sell the images or hand them over, it’s recreational. If you later decide to offer the photos out and even make some money out of it, the flight was still recreational.
I recently took a few videos for our local allotment association, which one of their members is editing and adding a soundtrack. It was the Secretary of the allotment association who asked me to do it, so I had permission. Was honestly glad to do it for free. Before filming, I spoke with a few on the allotment holders, to explain what I was doing and what to expect. Hopefully gaining a bit of respect for the drone flying community.
When it is being done without any expectation of gain/benefit it should not be regarded commercial. In this case photographing/videoing a get together at an amateur rugby club is a long long way from the line
